187. How to Decide if You Want Kids with Special Guest Kelsey
My client Kelsey had been trying to decide for years whether or not she wanted kids.
On the one hand, it just seemed obvious.
This is what people do. They have kids.
It’s how families are made. It’s the basis of belonging.
On the other hand, she wasn’t sure about it.
As much as she’d always assumed she’d have children of her own, something was getting in the way of her moving forward.
Something didn’t feel quite right about it.
Enter: coaching.
Kelsey and I dedicated a coaching session to talking through the situation.
By the end of it, she had a lot of clarity. And major relief.
But she still had some niggling concerns.
On this episode of Satisfied AF, we’ll talk through the original coaching conversation, sharing the insights and ideas that helped Kelsey get a handle on her desires. Then we’ll coach live on the remaining issues.
Join us for an incredible conversation about making decisions and creating a life that’s wildly delicious for you (even when it’s not what you thought it would be).
Want customized support creating your wildly delicious life? Let’s hop on a free consultation call.
I’ll help you understand the blockers you’re facing and how to handle them moving forward. And I’ll share how a three-month 1:1 coaching package could supercharge your progress as well as your satisfaction.
WHAT YOU’LL LEARN FROM THIS EPISODE:
One way to tackle making a big decision, especially if you feel a lot of confusion.
Why you may not see your true preference at first (hint: it’s probably some kind of
socialization that’s getting in the way).
What actually happens inside a coaching session (a very powerful kind of conversation).
LISTEN TO THE FULL EPISODE:
FEATURED ON THE SHOW:
If you’re enjoying the show, please leave me a rating and review on Apple Podcasts.
Feel free to ask me any questions over on Instagram. I love hearing from listeners.
If there are topics you want me to talk about on the podcast, feel free to write in and let me know by clicking here!
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
This week we’re talking about how to decide if you want to have kids or not.
The Satisfied AF podcast is the place to learn how to create a life and career that’s wildly delicious. Want a steamier sex life? We’ve got you. Want a more satisfying career? We’ll cover that too. And you can be sure we’ll spend lots of time talking about how to build connected, fun relationships that can handle life’s ups and downs. No matter what goals you’re working on, this show will help you create a one of a kind life that is just right for you. Join me, life and career coach Kori Linn and each week I’ll give you lots of practical tips, tools, and proven strategies to help you create all the satisfaction your heart desires.
Kori: Hello, hello, hello, happy Wednesday. Today we have a very special guest and a really cool conversation for you, including some live coaching so you can have an idea of what actually happens inside a coaching call.
Throughout this episode, we are referring to a tool and we’re talking about it as though the episode isn’t out yet, but I actually went ahead and recorded it already. So if you are interested in fake Oracle decision-making, that episode is actually already out.
Okay, Kelsey, do you want to introduce yourself and tell everyone what we have coached on so far?
Kelsey: Hi, I’m Kelsey. So I’ve been coaching with Kori for a couple of years now. I live in the Pacific Northwest in my mid 30s. And Kori and I have gotten into a lot of topics over the last couple of years, but one that we recently talked about was, do I want kids or not? And so that’s, I guess, the topic that we’re talking about.
Kori: So one thing Kelsey and I are going to talk about is we use this tool that I’m calling fake Oracle decision-making, which I’ll do a whole podcast episode on because I think it’s really powerful and it’s going to really help you listeners with any decisions you’re struggling to make.
But what this did was Kelsey has been kind of going, not even going back and forth, but just uncertain about what the choice she wanted to make was for, I think a pretty long time, if I remember correctly. Like multiple years, and wasn’t getting anywhere with it.
So I kind of made up on the spot, which is very much, that’s how I do things. I just like made up this tool on the spot where I basically said like, we’re going to flip a coin and I’m going to write down what the coin is now. And then you’re going to tell me like heads is this and tails is this. And then we’re going to see how you feel based on what happens.
I use this all the time. And the really silly example is like if you want dinner, but you’re like, do we want Thai or Indian? And your partner says Indian and you’re like, no, I want Thai. But until they said Indian, you just didn’t know.
So that is what we did. I wrote down tails and then I asked Kelsey, like what’s head and what’s tails? And Kelsey said, tails is not having kids. And I said, well, that’s what I wrote down. Like, how do you feel in your body? And she said relieved. And that was just really interesting information.
And then we went from there in a coaching conversation about that insight. And Kelsey, do you want to share a little bit, like what came up for you when we did that tool and I said, okay, it’s tails and then you felt that relief?
Kelsey: Yeah, definitely. I think I have been thinking about this for several years. I think, you know, I turned 36 a couple of months ago and it’s just like a fact that women have to consider if they want kids or not at a certain point. And so I’ve been putting a lot of pressure on myself. Do I make this choice? Like which way do I want to go? And I wasn’t getting anywhere.
And so when you said tails and my feeling was relief, it was like the first clear feeling I’d had about it in probably months. And so it suddenly unlocked this, oh, wait a minute. I think I’ve been talking myself into wanting this. I don’t think I actually have feelings of genuine want that are there.
And so it just really, I guess, opened a new pathway for me to consider, like maybe I’m not confused. Maybe I’m just trying to convince myself of something that’s not there.
Kori: Yeah. So like, let’s dig into that a little bit. Like why do you think you were trying to convince yourself to want something that maybe you don’t want?
Kelsey: I think it just goes back so deep, right? Like I was probably six when I was playing with dolls or like I just assumed I’d have kids someday. I don’t think I ever consciously decided it. And so I just carried it with me thinking that’s what I wanted, that’s what I wanted. And that opportunity never presented itself to me earlier.
So part of me is like, I don’t know, if it had happened sooner, would I have wanted it then? Or maybe it was just never something I really wanted and it was just like a default idea I’d carried with me.
Kori: And I’m so glad you brought that up because I think that applies to everyone listening now. Maybe not everyone listening has always had the default assumption, like of course I want kids. But I think everyone listening has had some kind of default assumption of like, of course, fill in the blank.
Like of course I’ll take over the family business. Or of course I’ll raise a family here in Ohio where I grew up. Or like for me, I think it was like, of course I’m straight. And then surprise, surprise, turns out I’m not straight and I’m very not straight.
So I think for all of us, we have these moments in our life where there is a default assumption and that either generates confusion, like it did for you. Or it generates like us making decisions or prioritizing certain things and then getting to this point in our life where we’re like, wait a fucking minute. This isn’t where I want to be. This isn’t what I want my life to be like. Or we can’t move forward with something, right?
And it’s interesting because I think for you, even when you assumed you wanted kids, you wanted that in a partner context. And until you were partnered, it kind of was neither here nor there. Or it was something that your brain would be like, well, that’s for later. But then now that you’re partnered, it was like, well, now is the time.
And there’s part of you that was like, but what if it’s not? What if I don’t want it to be the time? But I think that was hard for you to metabolize because it went against this deep and extremely old assumption that probably felt so habitual and normal, like, of course.
And I’ve also heard you mention in our coaching of like, well, that you really loved your childhood, which I think is wonderful and not an experience a ton of us share. But so your brain was like, well, of course I would create that for someone else versus like you really get to decide, like, even though I had an amazing childhood, that doesn’t mean that has to be what I carry on and do for another generation.
Kelsey: Definitely. One of the other things that you had said earlier in the conversation before we even did the Oracle flip the coin thing was we had realized that I was afraid of not belonging and that belonging to like my friends who are having babies, belonging to my own family by having babies. And really so much of it was tied into this fear of like, oh, if I don’t do it, it means I won’t fit in anymore.
And I think a lot of that was tied to me wanting to recreate family. And so when I took that out of the equation and said, like, what if just by default I will still belong to all the people that currently love me and they’re not going to stop loving me because I don’t have a child. I was able to see in a different way, like, oh, there’s so many other ways I can belong to people, to nieces and nephews, to pets and animals. Like it doesn’t have to be that I have to be a mother to get this sense of belonging.
Kori: Yeah. So that’s like a whole other level of assumption, right? Like we assume we’re going to have kids and we assume that that’s where belonging comes from. And once you begin to pick apart your assumptions, you might end up picking apart an awful lot of them. And that can be the best thing that ever happens to you because then it allows you to make the choices that will make your life truly satisfying as fuck to you versus being what you thought it was going to be or being what you thought it had to be in order to be “good.”
Kelsey: I think a piece that’s still sort of out there hanging for me that I’m trying to crystallize is like, my brain still has these ideas like, oh, but maybe we should convince ourselves to want it. Or maybe if you don’t want it, you’re living a selfish life and it’d be less selfish. So there’s still these kinds of arguments my brain is throwing at me even though I feel like I’ve had more clarity.
Kori: Okay, so do you want to dig into that with our live coaching right now?
Kelsey: Yeah, let’s do it.
Kori: For everyone listening, like we’ve talked a little bit about the lead in what happened in our last coaching call. And now we’re going to talk about in coaching there’s often like we get a click or we solve one element of something or we get this unlock of seeing like, oh, I had this assumption here and it was really blocking me from making this decision.
But even after the unlock, there’s often other little items that need to be collected, looked at, handled, in order to allow us to truly move forward through whatever that unlock was. And so that’s what Kelsey is touching on here, are these pieces of like, well, even though I was relieved, does that mean like, is it okay to not want that? Or should I just convince myself to want it?
One of the ideas with coaching and with the power of perspective is that you can change your perspective, right? So what Kelsey has unlocked here is like, oh, maybe my existing perspective is that I don’t want children. But I also know I can change my perspective. But my question is like, why would you?
Usually when we’re changing our perspective, we’re doing it – Like if I realize that my perspective is causing conflict in my relationship that I don’t think is helpful or necessary conflict, then I might change that perspective. Or if there’s a perspective in my relationship that’s allowing or encouraging me to bring up something that’s bothering me and that’s productive conflict, I might keep that perspective, right?
It’s like, oh, I actually realized I always assumed I would want that, but maybe I don’t. Should I change that perspective on purpose? And my question to you, Kelsey, is like, I mean, you could if you wanted to, as I always say in coaching. But why would you? Let’s just be curious, what would be the point of that?
Kelsey: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a good question. My brain is telling me that the point of doing it would be, like it goes back to like to fit in because it’s, yeah, like a more – I think there’s some morality around how I’m spending my time. It’s like, oh, well it’s a better use of your time to love and raise a human than to just go have fun and travel around the world or something.
Kori: Okay. So I think there’s two different pieces there, right? So let’s look at them one by one. So piece one is to fit in. First of all, we could question if that’s even true. If you even truly would fit in more if you have children. But thing two is like, let’s just say it were true, is that what you want the defining, like the value of your life to be is fitting in?
And I know you because I’ve coached you for a few years. So I’m like, I know it’s not.
Kelsey: No, definitely not. Yeah. I mean, I don’t want to fit in at the expense of living authentically to me.
Kori: Like, yeah, I could totally change my perspective and choose to orient my life to having kids, even though that’s not what my current uncovered perspective is. But like, wow, that really actually wouldn’t align with my values.
Also, we could get into the distinction between fitting in and belonging. Which fitting in is appearing to be like everyone else, whereas belonging is being truly connected, even if you’re not the same as everyone else. And I think I know you well enough to know that what you want is belonging, not fitting in.
Kelsey: Yeah. Even as you said that I was like, oh yes, that’s a good reminder to keep working on thinking about how I want to belong and who I belong with anyway. And like you said, being more authentically myself develops a deeper sense of belonging. Not a surface level one.
Kori: Yeah, a more authentic sense of belonging, right?
Kelsey: Yeah.
Kori: Versus like I’m a cookie cutter who looks like the other cookie cutters, which I think is the antithesis of what you want, if I know you as well as I think I do.
Kelsey: Yes. Yeah, that’s true.
Kori: This is what happens when you work with the same coach for a while, we’re like, oh yeah, I know some things about you. But just so everyone knows, coaching can also be really helpful when the coach doesn’t know the client. And that’s how all coaching relationships start.
Okay, Kelsey, let’s talk about the second piece, which is, is it morally superior to raise children? And first of all, it’s like, well, morally superior according to who? Because I’m sure some people would say it’s morally superior. But other people, I think, would say it’s not. And some people would say it’s morally superior not to have children. This is the funny thing about moral superiority. It’s like, who’s the judge?
Kelsey: Yeah. And I think what’s interesting is I’m not choosing not to have a kid because I want it to be better for the environment or because something’s wrong with the world. And I think there’s people that might say, oh, you shouldn’t bring more waste into the world or you shouldn’t bring someone into an uncertain world.
So it’s not like that type of moral superiority. So I’m like, I’m doing it because I just don’t want to. Is that okay? Is it okay for my reason to just be because it’s easier for me not to, or because I’d rather spend 20 years on different types of projects than raising a child?
Kori: Yeah, so I think this actually brings up something really interesting. I mostly coach women and people socialized as women. And this is a question that comes up a lot, which is like, is the fact that I want this enough of a reason, or does it have to be good in some way where like I’m going to get a stamp?
And maybe this also happens for people socialized as men. I’ve coached fewer, but haven’t run into that as much with those individuals. But I think it’s just a really interesting question of like, why wouldn’t what you want be enough?
Kelsey: That is an interesting question.
Kori: And like, who is your life for? Now, listen, I also talk all the time about how we’re social mammals, so I do think having some kind of conscientiousness towards the fact that we don’t live on the planet alone and other people are impacted by us, we are part of an ecosystem. But I think there’s a difference between like I’m being considerate to other people around me versus like, oh, someone else has to benefit more than me.
Kelsey: Yeah, absolutely. No, I think it’s a good question. I mean, I’m still thinking about when you said like, who is your life for? And I think that helps put in perspective like, well, if it’s for me, which I do believe, then why would me wanting something not be enough?
Kori: And if we really want to get into the intricacies of it, it’s like do you think it would be better for the potential children to be like, mommy didn’t want you, but mommy had you anyways because that felt like a duty? Like, is that somehow morally superior?
Kelsey: No, no, definitely not. I think that was one of the things I was thinking about. Like sort of processing afterwards, like if I know I don’t want it, then how is that good for anyone to keep moving forward with it?
I think this is like one of those thoughts that is tricky because it probably comes up a lot more than I think about it. So I think that having this idea of like, is wanting something enough, and like continuing to question that through my days as it comes up is going to be really helpful.
Kori: Well, let’s add some more layers here too, because there’s wanting and then there’s also your values, right? Because sometimes we want something, but we’re like, but that doesn’t align with my values so I’m not going to do it.
But I think what we’ve uncovered through the previous coaching and what we’re doing here right now is that there’s what you want, and there’s what aligns with your values, and they agree in this instance. Like you want to not have children, and your values for authenticity, for adventure, and for like freedom and living a life of your choosing, the values and the desire match up here, right?
Whereas I’m sure there’s things in your life that you’ve wanted, but you were like, going after that’s not in line with my values so I’m not going to do it. I know I’ve had those. I’ve also had them where sometimes I went after it and then was like, oh, I don’t like the way I feel about myself. I’m going to learn from that and maybe not do it again.
So I just, I wanted to add that layer because I think for some people being like, oh wait, so I just go after everything I want, regardless of consequences? That’s not what I’m suggesting. But when I’m saying like, who is your life for? Like, to me, my life is for me, but it’s not just for my pleasure. It’s also for me living in alignment with my values.
And I think those two things together, I think they work really well because they hinge desire and values together in a way that I think helps you live a life that feels really good for you, but also keeps you from violating your own values and doing things that don’t feel aligned, if that makes sense.
Kelsey: Yeah, definitely. I mean, yes, I can see it’s like just because you want something doesn’t mean you go do it all the time. But I do think it can be helpful to give yourself permission to want what you want, if it double checks with the values. Then you can be like, okay, this is a thing that I can want to want. Like I can just relax into the wanting of it and that I’m giving it to myself.
Kori: And I would even go further than that and say like, want whatever you want. But when it comes to what you’re going to go after, that’s where I’d check with the values because I think sometimes even just giving yourself permission to want something and then you can, even if you’re not going to go after it, you can just be curious about like, why do I want that? What would it do for me? Like, do I only want it because it feels like I can’t have it?
Just like, I think so often people are scared to look at their desires that seem a little dangerous to them. But the more we don’t look at them, the more we kind of, like they run our lives from behind the scenes versus when we’re willing to just engage with them, then we can decide on purpose intentionally like if we want to engage with them and what we want their role to be in our lives.
Okay, so let’s check in. The original coaching was like, the coaching that happened before this podcast was like, do you want to have kids or not? And it was like a lot of uncertainty. It felt very fraught. Then we used the fake Oracle decision-making to decide like, oh, actually the current true perspective is that you don’t want them.
And then it was like, is that okay? Am I allowed to have that preference? If I could change my perspective, should I? And then we’ve talked through that a little bit here. How do you feel now?
Kelsey: I feel pretty good. I think there’s part of me that is still like, whoa, this is so different than what I’ve just been talking about because I’ve been trying to convince myself into having kids for like the last six months, pretty hardcore.
I’ve talked to everyone about it. I’m like, oh my gosh, now I’m going to have to tell my mom I don’t want them. Now I’m going to have to tell all my friends I don’t want them. And I just spent like three months telling people, I think we’re going to start trying.
So it feels like quite a reversal. And so, yeah, I guess, yeah, now I’m starting to think about the social aspect of telling people in my life that I’m not interested anymore.
Kori: And when you think about that, what comes up? Is there some negative emotion around that? Like, do we feel guilty? Do we feel squirmy in some way?
Kelsey: I think for most of them, maybe like I would lose credibility or a little embarrassed maybe for flip-flopping if that’s – I don’t know.
Kori: Okay, here’s where we’re going to pull it all together because like, what if the best thing for your true belonging, for your true connection to people and for you being a beautiful model of living a human life is just for you to say like, you know what? I realized I was really trying to talk myself into that because it’s what I’d always thought was going to be my future. And I thought that’s what a good life is.
But I always felt this resistance and I struggled with it. And then I ultimately realized like, oh, I don’t want that. And I don’t have to do that. And you can even say to other people like, hey, have you ever had that happen where you really thought something was the way it had to be, and then one day you woke up and were like, oh, I don’t want that. And maybe that’s okay.
Like what if other people then begin to give themselves permission?
Kelsey: Yeah, no, that feels better. I do think that most people will understand, especially if I explain it that way. And I’m like a verbal processor. I do run ideas by friends and family, so there’s things there that I think I can just be like, hey, I’m like talking out loud. I’m trying to figure it out.
And I kept trying to, I think I was talking about it so much because I was trying to get that reaction in myself, like some sense of excitement or something. And I kept not getting it. So it does make a lot more sense now. And I think I could discuss that with people when I’m sharing.
Kori: I think it also, like this, really reveals how much of an agenda we can have with ourselves sometimes that we’re not even aware of, where we’re like, well, the correct answer is Y. So I just have to talk about it until I get to Y. But then we talk about it, talk about it and never get to Y. And then we’re like, it’s so weird that I haven’t gotten to Y.
But I think that’s a good thing for you to look out for listeners of like, if there’s a situation like this for you, maybe you don’t want Y. And maybe that’s okay. And maybe there will be some consequences. But I think a lot of times when we’re like, wow, I actually don’t want that, and we’re willing to be honest with people, a lot of times people are like, cool. Like they don’t actually necessarily have as much skin in the game as we think.
Or even if they are disappointed, it circles back to like, well, who’s your life for? Like, is it to make sure that other people are never disappointed with you? Because I personally don’t co-sign that.
Kelsey: Yes, I agree. It’s not for that.
Kori: Okay. Well, thank you so much, Kelsey, for being willing to get coached in front of the whole world. I so appreciate you and I think this is such an important topic that a lot of people would be really shy to get coaching about this. I mean, a lot of people are shy to get coaching just even in front of me, the coach, but definitely in front of the world and everyone.
So we really appreciate you being willing to have this conversation with me. And before we get off of here I just want to say like, are there any, like what would you offer to the listeners? Are there any key takeaways from either this coaching or having coached with me at other times? Like what do you want to offer the Satisfied AF listeners that you think will help them have a more deeply delicious life?
Kelsey: Yeah. I mean, I think, one, not all of our coaching sessions are this deep. Sometimes I’m just bringing something that drove me crazy in an email or that someone else did. And I think that both of those experiences are equally valuable in terms of helping me figure out how I want to approach a situation out of intention, rather than sort of my default reaction.
And I think that there’s a lot of great coaching that can be done on a variety of topics. But if you are looking to make major changes, this is, we talked about it probably the third one at this point, Kori, that over the course of the last two or three years that I’ve really shifted my perspective on. And I think I couldn’t have done it without coaching.
So for me, it’s really helping me remake how I want to approach my future intentionally and authentically, rather than kind of with all these default baggage of what was in my brain before.
Kori: I love that you said that because I am such a fan of pebble in the shoe coaching, which is what I often call it, of like even if you get coached on something that doesn’t feel emotionally high stakes to you at all, the shift in how you think about that thing, first of all, it might be a much easier shift to make. Second of all, it can ripple out into all these other areas of your life.
And I’ve seen that over and over again in the coaching I’ve received, in the coaching I’ve given, in the coaching in groups, in one-on-ones, everything. So thank you so much, Kelsey, for pointing that out.
And secondly, I’m just really delighted to have been able to coach you and to watch you through so many big transitions and getting closer to a life that feels authentically delicious to you, versus like this matches what I was told a good life is like, and I just have to deal with it when it feels kind of itchy. No itchy lives, y’all. Life is hard enough as it is. Let’s do the work we need to do to be able to have the version of it that feels as good as possible to us, I think.
All right, Kelsey, is there anything else you want people to know?
Kelsey: No, I don’t think so.
Kori: Okay. Well, thank you again so much. I just, I super appreciate you. So courageous. I would be so shy to get coached live like this. So, everyone, a giant round of applause for Kelsey. And if you want to have some of what Kelsey is talking about, I do have space for one-on-one clients currently, and I would love to have you be one of them.
You can go to KoriLinn.com and sign up for a free consult call. And first of all, you’ll get a lot of value just from that. You’ll probably feel a lot of relief and motivation to move forward. And also, if it seems like a good fit, I will let you know how we can work together. Thanks so much, y’all. Have a great week. I will talk to you next time.
Thank you for joining me for this week’s episode of Satisfied AF. If you are ready to create a wildly delicious life and have way more fun than you ever thought possible, visit www.korilinn.com to see how I can help. See you next week.
The Satisfied AF podcast is the place to learn how to create a life and career that’s wildly delicious. Want a steamier sex life? We’ve got you. Want a more satisfying career? We’ll cover that too. And you can be sure we’ll spend lots of time talking about how to build connected, fun relationships that can handle life’s ups and downs. No matter what goals you’re working on, this show will help you create a one of a kind life that is just right for you. Join me, life and career coach Kori Linn and each week I’ll give you lots of practical tips, tools, and proven strategies to help you create all the satisfaction your heart desires.
Kori: Hello, hello, hello, happy Wednesday. Today we have a very special guest and a really cool conversation for you, including some live coaching so you can have an idea of what actually happens inside a coaching call.
Throughout this episode, we are referring to a tool and we’re talking about it as though the episode isn’t out yet, but I actually went ahead and recorded it already. So if you are interested in fake Oracle decision-making, that episode is actually already out.
Okay, Kelsey, do you want to introduce yourself and tell everyone what we have coached on so far?
Kelsey: Hi, I’m Kelsey. So I’ve been coaching with Kori for a couple of years now. I live in the Pacific Northwest in my mid 30s. And Kori and I have gotten into a lot of topics over the last couple of years, but one that we recently talked about was, do I want kids or not? And so that’s, I guess, the topic that we’re talking about.
Kori: So one thing Kelsey and I are going to talk about is we use this tool that I’m calling fake Oracle decision-making, which I’ll do a whole podcast episode on because I think it’s really powerful and it’s going to really help you listeners with any decisions you’re struggling to make.
But what this did was Kelsey has been kind of going, not even going back and forth, but just uncertain about what the choice she wanted to make was for, I think a pretty long time, if I remember correctly. Like multiple years, and wasn’t getting anywhere with it.
So I kind of made up on the spot, which is very much, that’s how I do things. I just like made up this tool on the spot where I basically said like, we’re going to flip a coin and I’m going to write down what the coin is now. And then you’re going to tell me like heads is this and tails is this. And then we’re going to see how you feel based on what happens.
I use this all the time. And the really silly example is like if you want dinner, but you’re like, do we want Thai or Indian? And your partner says Indian and you’re like, no, I want Thai. But until they said Indian, you just didn’t know.
So that is what we did. I wrote down tails and then I asked Kelsey, like what’s head and what’s tails? And Kelsey said, tails is not having kids. And I said, well, that’s what I wrote down. Like, how do you feel in your body? And she said relieved. And that was just really interesting information.
And then we went from there in a coaching conversation about that insight. And Kelsey, do you want to share a little bit, like what came up for you when we did that tool and I said, okay, it’s tails and then you felt that relief?
Kelsey: Yeah, definitely. I think I have been thinking about this for several years. I think, you know, I turned 36 a couple of months ago and it’s just like a fact that women have to consider if they want kids or not at a certain point. And so I’ve been putting a lot of pressure on myself. Do I make this choice? Like which way do I want to go? And I wasn’t getting anywhere.
And so when you said tails and my feeling was relief, it was like the first clear feeling I’d had about it in probably months. And so it suddenly unlocked this, oh, wait a minute. I think I’ve been talking myself into wanting this. I don’t think I actually have feelings of genuine want that are there.
And so it just really, I guess, opened a new pathway for me to consider, like maybe I’m not confused. Maybe I’m just trying to convince myself of something that’s not there.
Kori: Yeah. So like, let’s dig into that a little bit. Like why do you think you were trying to convince yourself to want something that maybe you don’t want?
Kelsey: I think it just goes back so deep, right? Like I was probably six when I was playing with dolls or like I just assumed I’d have kids someday. I don’t think I ever consciously decided it. And so I just carried it with me thinking that’s what I wanted, that’s what I wanted. And that opportunity never presented itself to me earlier.
So part of me is like, I don’t know, if it had happened sooner, would I have wanted it then? Or maybe it was just never something I really wanted and it was just like a default idea I’d carried with me.
Kori: And I’m so glad you brought that up because I think that applies to everyone listening now. Maybe not everyone listening has always had the default assumption, like of course I want kids. But I think everyone listening has had some kind of default assumption of like, of course, fill in the blank.
Like of course I’ll take over the family business. Or of course I’ll raise a family here in Ohio where I grew up. Or like for me, I think it was like, of course I’m straight. And then surprise, surprise, turns out I’m not straight and I’m very not straight.
So I think for all of us, we have these moments in our life where there is a default assumption and that either generates confusion, like it did for you. Or it generates like us making decisions or prioritizing certain things and then getting to this point in our life where we’re like, wait a fucking minute. This isn’t where I want to be. This isn’t what I want my life to be like. Or we can’t move forward with something, right?
And it’s interesting because I think for you, even when you assumed you wanted kids, you wanted that in a partner context. And until you were partnered, it kind of was neither here nor there. Or it was something that your brain would be like, well, that’s for later. But then now that you’re partnered, it was like, well, now is the time.
And there’s part of you that was like, but what if it’s not? What if I don’t want it to be the time? But I think that was hard for you to metabolize because it went against this deep and extremely old assumption that probably felt so habitual and normal, like, of course.
And I’ve also heard you mention in our coaching of like, well, that you really loved your childhood, which I think is wonderful and not an experience a ton of us share. But so your brain was like, well, of course I would create that for someone else versus like you really get to decide, like, even though I had an amazing childhood, that doesn’t mean that has to be what I carry on and do for another generation.
Kelsey: Definitely. One of the other things that you had said earlier in the conversation before we even did the Oracle flip the coin thing was we had realized that I was afraid of not belonging and that belonging to like my friends who are having babies, belonging to my own family by having babies. And really so much of it was tied into this fear of like, oh, if I don’t do it, it means I won’t fit in anymore.
And I think a lot of that was tied to me wanting to recreate family. And so when I took that out of the equation and said, like, what if just by default I will still belong to all the people that currently love me and they’re not going to stop loving me because I don’t have a child. I was able to see in a different way, like, oh, there’s so many other ways I can belong to people, to nieces and nephews, to pets and animals. Like it doesn’t have to be that I have to be a mother to get this sense of belonging.
Kori: Yeah. So that’s like a whole other level of assumption, right? Like we assume we’re going to have kids and we assume that that’s where belonging comes from. And once you begin to pick apart your assumptions, you might end up picking apart an awful lot of them. And that can be the best thing that ever happens to you because then it allows you to make the choices that will make your life truly satisfying as fuck to you versus being what you thought it was going to be or being what you thought it had to be in order to be “good.”
Kelsey: I think a piece that’s still sort of out there hanging for me that I’m trying to crystallize is like, my brain still has these ideas like, oh, but maybe we should convince ourselves to want it. Or maybe if you don’t want it, you’re living a selfish life and it’d be less selfish. So there’s still these kinds of arguments my brain is throwing at me even though I feel like I’ve had more clarity.
Kori: Okay, so do you want to dig into that with our live coaching right now?
Kelsey: Yeah, let’s do it.
Kori: For everyone listening, like we’ve talked a little bit about the lead in what happened in our last coaching call. And now we’re going to talk about in coaching there’s often like we get a click or we solve one element of something or we get this unlock of seeing like, oh, I had this assumption here and it was really blocking me from making this decision.
But even after the unlock, there’s often other little items that need to be collected, looked at, handled, in order to allow us to truly move forward through whatever that unlock was. And so that’s what Kelsey is touching on here, are these pieces of like, well, even though I was relieved, does that mean like, is it okay to not want that? Or should I just convince myself to want it?
One of the ideas with coaching and with the power of perspective is that you can change your perspective, right? So what Kelsey has unlocked here is like, oh, maybe my existing perspective is that I don’t want children. But I also know I can change my perspective. But my question is like, why would you?
Usually when we’re changing our perspective, we’re doing it – Like if I realize that my perspective is causing conflict in my relationship that I don’t think is helpful or necessary conflict, then I might change that perspective. Or if there’s a perspective in my relationship that’s allowing or encouraging me to bring up something that’s bothering me and that’s productive conflict, I might keep that perspective, right?
It’s like, oh, I actually realized I always assumed I would want that, but maybe I don’t. Should I change that perspective on purpose? And my question to you, Kelsey, is like, I mean, you could if you wanted to, as I always say in coaching. But why would you? Let’s just be curious, what would be the point of that?
Kelsey: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a good question. My brain is telling me that the point of doing it would be, like it goes back to like to fit in because it’s, yeah, like a more – I think there’s some morality around how I’m spending my time. It’s like, oh, well it’s a better use of your time to love and raise a human than to just go have fun and travel around the world or something.
Kori: Okay. So I think there’s two different pieces there, right? So let’s look at them one by one. So piece one is to fit in. First of all, we could question if that’s even true. If you even truly would fit in more if you have children. But thing two is like, let’s just say it were true, is that what you want the defining, like the value of your life to be is fitting in?
And I know you because I’ve coached you for a few years. So I’m like, I know it’s not.
Kelsey: No, definitely not. Yeah. I mean, I don’t want to fit in at the expense of living authentically to me.
Kori: Like, yeah, I could totally change my perspective and choose to orient my life to having kids, even though that’s not what my current uncovered perspective is. But like, wow, that really actually wouldn’t align with my values.
Also, we could get into the distinction between fitting in and belonging. Which fitting in is appearing to be like everyone else, whereas belonging is being truly connected, even if you’re not the same as everyone else. And I think I know you well enough to know that what you want is belonging, not fitting in.
Kelsey: Yeah. Even as you said that I was like, oh yes, that’s a good reminder to keep working on thinking about how I want to belong and who I belong with anyway. And like you said, being more authentically myself develops a deeper sense of belonging. Not a surface level one.
Kori: Yeah, a more authentic sense of belonging, right?
Kelsey: Yeah.
Kori: Versus like I’m a cookie cutter who looks like the other cookie cutters, which I think is the antithesis of what you want, if I know you as well as I think I do.
Kelsey: Yes. Yeah, that’s true.
Kori: This is what happens when you work with the same coach for a while, we’re like, oh yeah, I know some things about you. But just so everyone knows, coaching can also be really helpful when the coach doesn’t know the client. And that’s how all coaching relationships start.
Okay, Kelsey, let’s talk about the second piece, which is, is it morally superior to raise children? And first of all, it’s like, well, morally superior according to who? Because I’m sure some people would say it’s morally superior. But other people, I think, would say it’s not. And some people would say it’s morally superior not to have children. This is the funny thing about moral superiority. It’s like, who’s the judge?
Kelsey: Yeah. And I think what’s interesting is I’m not choosing not to have a kid because I want it to be better for the environment or because something’s wrong with the world. And I think there’s people that might say, oh, you shouldn’t bring more waste into the world or you shouldn’t bring someone into an uncertain world.
So it’s not like that type of moral superiority. So I’m like, I’m doing it because I just don’t want to. Is that okay? Is it okay for my reason to just be because it’s easier for me not to, or because I’d rather spend 20 years on different types of projects than raising a child?
Kori: Yeah, so I think this actually brings up something really interesting. I mostly coach women and people socialized as women. And this is a question that comes up a lot, which is like, is the fact that I want this enough of a reason, or does it have to be good in some way where like I’m going to get a stamp?
And maybe this also happens for people socialized as men. I’ve coached fewer, but haven’t run into that as much with those individuals. But I think it’s just a really interesting question of like, why wouldn’t what you want be enough?
Kelsey: That is an interesting question.
Kori: And like, who is your life for? Now, listen, I also talk all the time about how we’re social mammals, so I do think having some kind of conscientiousness towards the fact that we don’t live on the planet alone and other people are impacted by us, we are part of an ecosystem. But I think there’s a difference between like I’m being considerate to other people around me versus like, oh, someone else has to benefit more than me.
Kelsey: Yeah, absolutely. No, I think it’s a good question. I mean, I’m still thinking about when you said like, who is your life for? And I think that helps put in perspective like, well, if it’s for me, which I do believe, then why would me wanting something not be enough?
Kori: And if we really want to get into the intricacies of it, it’s like do you think it would be better for the potential children to be like, mommy didn’t want you, but mommy had you anyways because that felt like a duty? Like, is that somehow morally superior?
Kelsey: No, no, definitely not. I think that was one of the things I was thinking about. Like sort of processing afterwards, like if I know I don’t want it, then how is that good for anyone to keep moving forward with it?
I think this is like one of those thoughts that is tricky because it probably comes up a lot more than I think about it. So I think that having this idea of like, is wanting something enough, and like continuing to question that through my days as it comes up is going to be really helpful.
Kori: Well, let’s add some more layers here too, because there’s wanting and then there’s also your values, right? Because sometimes we want something, but we’re like, but that doesn’t align with my values so I’m not going to do it.
But I think what we’ve uncovered through the previous coaching and what we’re doing here right now is that there’s what you want, and there’s what aligns with your values, and they agree in this instance. Like you want to not have children, and your values for authenticity, for adventure, and for like freedom and living a life of your choosing, the values and the desire match up here, right?
Whereas I’m sure there’s things in your life that you’ve wanted, but you were like, going after that’s not in line with my values so I’m not going to do it. I know I’ve had those. I’ve also had them where sometimes I went after it and then was like, oh, I don’t like the way I feel about myself. I’m going to learn from that and maybe not do it again.
So I just, I wanted to add that layer because I think for some people being like, oh wait, so I just go after everything I want, regardless of consequences? That’s not what I’m suggesting. But when I’m saying like, who is your life for? Like, to me, my life is for me, but it’s not just for my pleasure. It’s also for me living in alignment with my values.
And I think those two things together, I think they work really well because they hinge desire and values together in a way that I think helps you live a life that feels really good for you, but also keeps you from violating your own values and doing things that don’t feel aligned, if that makes sense.
Kelsey: Yeah, definitely. I mean, yes, I can see it’s like just because you want something doesn’t mean you go do it all the time. But I do think it can be helpful to give yourself permission to want what you want, if it double checks with the values. Then you can be like, okay, this is a thing that I can want to want. Like I can just relax into the wanting of it and that I’m giving it to myself.
Kori: And I would even go further than that and say like, want whatever you want. But when it comes to what you’re going to go after, that’s where I’d check with the values because I think sometimes even just giving yourself permission to want something and then you can, even if you’re not going to go after it, you can just be curious about like, why do I want that? What would it do for me? Like, do I only want it because it feels like I can’t have it?
Just like, I think so often people are scared to look at their desires that seem a little dangerous to them. But the more we don’t look at them, the more we kind of, like they run our lives from behind the scenes versus when we’re willing to just engage with them, then we can decide on purpose intentionally like if we want to engage with them and what we want their role to be in our lives.
Okay, so let’s check in. The original coaching was like, the coaching that happened before this podcast was like, do you want to have kids or not? And it was like a lot of uncertainty. It felt very fraught. Then we used the fake Oracle decision-making to decide like, oh, actually the current true perspective is that you don’t want them.
And then it was like, is that okay? Am I allowed to have that preference? If I could change my perspective, should I? And then we’ve talked through that a little bit here. How do you feel now?
Kelsey: I feel pretty good. I think there’s part of me that is still like, whoa, this is so different than what I’ve just been talking about because I’ve been trying to convince myself into having kids for like the last six months, pretty hardcore.
I’ve talked to everyone about it. I’m like, oh my gosh, now I’m going to have to tell my mom I don’t want them. Now I’m going to have to tell all my friends I don’t want them. And I just spent like three months telling people, I think we’re going to start trying.
So it feels like quite a reversal. And so, yeah, I guess, yeah, now I’m starting to think about the social aspect of telling people in my life that I’m not interested anymore.
Kori: And when you think about that, what comes up? Is there some negative emotion around that? Like, do we feel guilty? Do we feel squirmy in some way?
Kelsey: I think for most of them, maybe like I would lose credibility or a little embarrassed maybe for flip-flopping if that’s – I don’t know.
Kori: Okay, here’s where we’re going to pull it all together because like, what if the best thing for your true belonging, for your true connection to people and for you being a beautiful model of living a human life is just for you to say like, you know what? I realized I was really trying to talk myself into that because it’s what I’d always thought was going to be my future. And I thought that’s what a good life is.
But I always felt this resistance and I struggled with it. And then I ultimately realized like, oh, I don’t want that. And I don’t have to do that. And you can even say to other people like, hey, have you ever had that happen where you really thought something was the way it had to be, and then one day you woke up and were like, oh, I don’t want that. And maybe that’s okay.
Like what if other people then begin to give themselves permission?
Kelsey: Yeah, no, that feels better. I do think that most people will understand, especially if I explain it that way. And I’m like a verbal processor. I do run ideas by friends and family, so there’s things there that I think I can just be like, hey, I’m like talking out loud. I’m trying to figure it out.
And I kept trying to, I think I was talking about it so much because I was trying to get that reaction in myself, like some sense of excitement or something. And I kept not getting it. So it does make a lot more sense now. And I think I could discuss that with people when I’m sharing.
Kori: I think it also, like this, really reveals how much of an agenda we can have with ourselves sometimes that we’re not even aware of, where we’re like, well, the correct answer is Y. So I just have to talk about it until I get to Y. But then we talk about it, talk about it and never get to Y. And then we’re like, it’s so weird that I haven’t gotten to Y.
But I think that’s a good thing for you to look out for listeners of like, if there’s a situation like this for you, maybe you don’t want Y. And maybe that’s okay. And maybe there will be some consequences. But I think a lot of times when we’re like, wow, I actually don’t want that, and we’re willing to be honest with people, a lot of times people are like, cool. Like they don’t actually necessarily have as much skin in the game as we think.
Or even if they are disappointed, it circles back to like, well, who’s your life for? Like, is it to make sure that other people are never disappointed with you? Because I personally don’t co-sign that.
Kelsey: Yes, I agree. It’s not for that.
Kori: Okay. Well, thank you so much, Kelsey, for being willing to get coached in front of the whole world. I so appreciate you and I think this is such an important topic that a lot of people would be really shy to get coaching about this. I mean, a lot of people are shy to get coaching just even in front of me, the coach, but definitely in front of the world and everyone.
So we really appreciate you being willing to have this conversation with me. And before we get off of here I just want to say like, are there any, like what would you offer to the listeners? Are there any key takeaways from either this coaching or having coached with me at other times? Like what do you want to offer the Satisfied AF listeners that you think will help them have a more deeply delicious life?
Kelsey: Yeah. I mean, I think, one, not all of our coaching sessions are this deep. Sometimes I’m just bringing something that drove me crazy in an email or that someone else did. And I think that both of those experiences are equally valuable in terms of helping me figure out how I want to approach a situation out of intention, rather than sort of my default reaction.
And I think that there’s a lot of great coaching that can be done on a variety of topics. But if you are looking to make major changes, this is, we talked about it probably the third one at this point, Kori, that over the course of the last two or three years that I’ve really shifted my perspective on. And I think I couldn’t have done it without coaching.
So for me, it’s really helping me remake how I want to approach my future intentionally and authentically, rather than kind of with all these default baggage of what was in my brain before.
Kori: I love that you said that because I am such a fan of pebble in the shoe coaching, which is what I often call it, of like even if you get coached on something that doesn’t feel emotionally high stakes to you at all, the shift in how you think about that thing, first of all, it might be a much easier shift to make. Second of all, it can ripple out into all these other areas of your life.
And I’ve seen that over and over again in the coaching I’ve received, in the coaching I’ve given, in the coaching in groups, in one-on-ones, everything. So thank you so much, Kelsey, for pointing that out.
And secondly, I’m just really delighted to have been able to coach you and to watch you through so many big transitions and getting closer to a life that feels authentically delicious to you, versus like this matches what I was told a good life is like, and I just have to deal with it when it feels kind of itchy. No itchy lives, y’all. Life is hard enough as it is. Let’s do the work we need to do to be able to have the version of it that feels as good as possible to us, I think.
All right, Kelsey, is there anything else you want people to know?
Kelsey: No, I don’t think so.
Kori: Okay. Well, thank you again so much. I just, I super appreciate you. So courageous. I would be so shy to get coached live like this. So, everyone, a giant round of applause for Kelsey. And if you want to have some of what Kelsey is talking about, I do have space for one-on-one clients currently, and I would love to have you be one of them.
You can go to KoriLinn.com and sign up for a free consult call. And first of all, you’ll get a lot of value just from that. You’ll probably feel a lot of relief and motivation to move forward. And also, if it seems like a good fit, I will let you know how we can work together. Thanks so much, y’all. Have a great week. I will talk to you next time.
Thank you for joining me for this week’s episode of Satisfied AF. If you are ready to create a wildly delicious life and have way more fun than you ever thought possible, visit www.korilinn.com to see how I can help. See you next week.
Enjoy the Show?
Don’t miss an episode, follow the podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or anywhere else you listen.
Previous
Previous
188. You’re Worth Your Own Effort
Next
Next